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Forum:Ways that randomness helps this wiki
At the moment, there's a disagreement whether random comments are helping this wiki. One side seems to be saying, "it's a distraction and here's other, more appropriate places to put them in". The other seems to be saying, "it's just for fun and it's not hurting anything". Neither side is doing a good job of expressing their viewpoint. Let's try to fix this issue. In the past few months, Topher, Flash and myself have tried nudging blogs back on course when they drift too far away from its original subject. But sometimes we basically have to put our shoulder into it and shove it back on course, which nobody seems to like. We have also tried to provide alternatives to using the blogs for miscellaneous unrelated conversations. :* The Fanon Wiki has always been there for fan fiction stories. :* You have the IRC chat channel if you want to chat with another person in real-time. :* We even created a message board where those kinds of miscellaneous conversations are not only permitted, but there's an area specifically just for them. :* Now we have a Twitter account where we can make quick announcements and follow some of the cast members. Each of these things was done to avoid saying "that's verboten and that's final". The intent has always been to say "that would be better in a different place". Everyone knows all of this. What I think people don't know is how many people around the world are looking at this wiki as a good source of information. :* Dan Povenmire and Jeff "Swampy" Marsh have stopped by in the past and sometimes they'll answer questions from us. :* If you do a search for Phineas and Ferb on Google, Yahoo, Bing, AltaVista or Lycos, this wiki is #4 in the results, behind only Disney, Wikipedia and the Internet Movie Database. :* Wikia is starting to feed blog comments onto their portal pages so that many people can see them. All of this means we're not isolated any more. What we do here is seen by a lot of people. What I just listed are kind of nebulous examples of how important it is for us to have good information. Here's a concrete reason: A quote from this wiki showed up on a toy sold by Disney. Let me say that again: something that we did was good enough to get the attention of a person connected to Disney and they used it on a toy sold across the United States. We don't know who it was that made this decision. That doesn't matter. What matters is that it's very cool and it shows why we need to have good information on this wiki. What we do here is having a world-wide effect. So with that in mind, let's turn back to randomness. Since saying "that would be better somewhere else" and "this is supposed to be an encyclopedia" isn't working, let's hear why it should stay on this wiki. How does randomness help this wiki more than it helps being on other sites? How does it make this wiki better? Help everyone see how it's useful for it to be on this wiki. Leave your responses below. — RRabbit42 (leave a message) 19:17, May 2, 2010 (UTC) Responses So you're asking how Random-ness (as I like to call it) helps this wiki?? Well, for one thing, it helps us express our feelings, when we don't want to use some overused word like, "I'm so happy!", or "Cool!!", etc. Plus, it is a fun way of expressing ourselves. :D --'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 19:35, May 2, 2010 (UTC) As The original "random guy"(a name I'm not sure lead to the prominence of it's usage on this wiki), I too have a soft spot for the concept. A place where people can discuss whatever abstract concept hits their cranium at any moment. I've come up with quite a few ideas just by "goofing off" with others on how to fill in possible plot holes. That is my vision of how to make this community the best it can be. A place where fan theory can solve questions that plague the obsessed members of any community. Randomness needs a purpose I know it sounds contradictory but that's always how I've felt. Perhaps this will be viewed as betrayal, a sign that I don't deserve my moniker. That I don't believe randomness should be equated with nonsequitars. ThatBobGuy 20:11, May 2, 2010 (UTC) :Yes, I'm aware that the administrators would like the PnF encyclopedia to stay... encyclopedial. But isn't there such a thing as freedom of speech? J. Severe (A young boy trying to find his place in the world, one wiki at a time!) (wiki) 20:30, May 2, 2010 (UTC) : :Yes, it is in the U.S Constitution. Random-ness is just a part of our being, whether we want it or not!! I believe that deep down inside, each of us has some type of random-ness, which shows that we're a kid at heart. Admins, you have all at one point stated that Phineas and Ferb is a children's show, this is, pretty much, intended to children and pre-teens. Why can't you just admit that you guys ae just trying force us to not be children!! :--'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 00:53, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::But the question is still raise, how does it help the wiki itself? And what would the problem be in "expressing yourself" through randomness just on a different outlet? And no one is trying to force you not to be children. That is pure overreaction and grossly misinterpreting what we're saying. Why, exactly, is it a necessity to spout out "Fried chicken" and such on a website whose sole purpose is to educate people about a TV show? We're finding it difficult to try and work this out when nobody seems to be completely understand the entire concept of what we're saying, and the question there is: why? The Flash {talk} 01:11, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::First of all, "FLDSMDFR!!" is my main catchphrase, not "Fried chicken", that's J. Severe's. And second, we're children/pre-teens!!! We are not always going to understand what you are trying to explain!! I'm not trying to say we don't understand anything, but this is a website!!!! There is always, no matter how hard you try, going to be misinterpretations. ::--'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 01:23, May 3, 2010 (UTC) :::Your age does not desecrate your intelligence, ability to understand things, etc., but, whatever. Second, please, please stop yelling, it's ludicrously unnecessary. Now, on the topic at hand: you have still not answered the question. How does it help the encyclopedia? You being children, or asserting that we are in someway taking away your legal rights (preposterous, I might add; you are now just making up stuff to hate us for), do not answer said question. How does randomness make the encyclopedia about a TV show, which is now the best source for information said TV show and is now being cited by Disney themselves, a better, more comprehensive place in any way, shape, or form? That's the question at hand, and it's the only reason this site exists. The Flash {talk} 01:29, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, I'm in a bad mood right now, (not because of this discussion, just something happening at home), and I might have overreacted, but we aren't writing "I Love Pie" all over the articles, are we?? We are just, in a way that might be foreign to you, expressing our love for Phineas and Ferb on blogs. Sometimes transitions are hard for us, such as the one to the Message Board, to me. Random-ness might just another "tonteria" to you, but for me, this might sound corny, it's another "hecho" from my soul. (Yeah, that was corny.) P.S., I don not in any way hate you guys! You're are just role models. ::::--'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 01:36, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::I know you guys are not, but, the question here is: How do they help this specific encyclopedia? That's all we need to know. What is your answer to that? The Flash {talk} 01:47, May 3, 2010 (UTC) :::It's neutral: it doesn't actually help it, but it doesn't cause any harm to it either. :::--'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 01:50, May 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::So you're saying it doesn't help it at all? Thank you, twas all we needed to know. The Flash {talk} 02:27, May 3, 2010 (UTC) Actually, there's more to it than just that. We can't draw conclusions just yet. We need to make sure that everyone who wants to respond has a chance to. — RRabbit42 (leave a message) 03:30, May 3, 2010 (UTC) I'm not saying that randomly shouting "I like cheese" is doing the wiki good. In fact I go say that on the Random-ness wiki if I really need to say it. But if a blog has gone off topic, and all users seem content with their current conversation is it really nessisary to force us back to a subject we've all spoken about and moved on from? If you think it is; fine, what do I know I'm just a school girl. But I think that a fresh conversation can keep the ball rolling when we've said all we had to say on the set topic. If a user comes to the blog for the first time and we're going on about something completely different they're welcome to have their input on the original subject. What I think it is that people don't like that admins do, is showing up sayng "Stop this nonsense! Get back on topic!" then leaving again without so much as telling us their thoughts on the subject at hand. As Daisy said we're children, children have a natural instinct to rebel against the guy in charge (e.g teachers and the like) so when you speak with authority like that we instintivly don't listen. I'm sorry this is so long, I'll try and wrap it up quickly; Random-ness makes this wiki better because it brings a stronger sense of community. (I could have just said that in the first place but, oh well) Lost in Ferb-Land... :Thank you, Lost in Ferb-Land, that is exactly what I meant. Even though random-ness doesn't help this wiki, that doesn't mean it helps ourselves. --'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 21:16, May 3, 2010 (UTC) What we are asking is that you try out our other ways to form a community. We have started a Facebook page and Twitter account to try and keep in touch with everyone. These are the two largest social network (community-building) sites out there. We have our own chat room to communicate in real-time. We also spent several weeks building our very own Message Board to accommodate all your ideas such as needing "randomness". Daisy, I know you signed up, but you never really gave it a chance. The Message Board can be just as fun if you join us in inviting all your friends over to the Board and start communicating with it. We are giving you plenty of places to express yourselves in whatever way you would like to. We are being very reasonable here. You mentioned that you didn't go around "writing 'I Love Pie' all over the articles." Well, we're asking that you control yourselves in one more area on the wiki: the blogs. We are trying to meet you halfway by creating new areas/websites for you to form your friendships and community bonds rather than just shutting the blogs down completely and not giving you alternatives. Again, we are asking that you at least try the other sites/methods before you criticize them. —Topher (talk) 07:52, May 8, 2010 (UTC) Addressing the concerns I just spent a couple days going through the pretty much every blog on this wiki. From what I can see, most blogs are okay. What happens is that when there is a problem, it is very noticable. This tends to make it appear to be a bigger problem than it is. Let me see if I can address the most recent concerns. * "If a blog has gone off topic and all users seem content with their current conversation, is it really necessary to force us back to a subject we've all spoken about and moved on from?" There's two parts to this. First, from what I saw, many times the original subject wasn't done being discussed. Someone would pop up with an unrelated comment and that detoured the conversation into a new direction. It usually wasn't a gradual detour. It was almost always a complete change in direction. Those were the times where myself or another person would come in and request that it return to the original conversation. For my part, I tried to make them a request rather than an order. Second, if you really do want to start talking about something else, why not create a new blog? That way, when there's more to be said on the first subject, people can continue on with it. Those that want to branch off elsewhere can do so and still keep the first subject intact. * "But I think that a fresh conversation can keep the ball rolling when we've said all we had to say on the set topic. If a user comes to the blog for the first time and we're going on about something completely different they're welcome to have their input on the original subject." With a blog, it's hard to do that. In order to return to a previous subject, you have to make some kind of reference to it. You either quote it, or more often, people just say "@User" with their addition. This forces a person to have to scroll up through the previous messages to see what it refers to. At that point, you're jumping back and forth between the different subjects that are now under the same blog. Blogs are more of a feedback system rather than a way to hold a conversation. The IRC and the Message Board work much better for that. On the IRC, you get a near-instant response, close to what you would if you were talking to them in person. The Community Message Board has quoting built in so even if a message does branch off into different subjects, the relevant information can easily be brought back to the foreground without having to scroll through the past messages. But even in that situation, starting a new message can work better. * "It helps us express our feelings, when we don't want to use some overused word like, "I'm so happy!", or "Cool!!", etc. Plus, it is a fun way of expressing ourselves." I can understand that. Keeping what you say from being boring is good. But there are many ways to add variety to what you say and still have it be related to what is being discussed. You can show your creativity by finding those ways. * "What I think it is that people don't like that admins do, is showing up sayng "Stop this nonsense! Get back on topic!" then leaving again without so much as telling us their thoughts on the subject at hand." I already addressed the first part above (the "get back on topic" part), so I will give you the admin team's personal reasons for the second part. Our interests lie in building this wiki and maintaining it. There is so much more to be added before we get anywhere close to being done. Chatting with other people is a secondary interest. So when we're looking at the Recent Changes, we usually just skim the blog comments to see what's going on. If it looks like there might be a problem, then one of us will read that blog and post a reply if we need to. But usually, we don't have anything that needs to be said on most blogs. That's probably the reason why it looks like we only just say "get back on topic" (as a request, actually). In a way, we're like janitors. We clean up messes when necessary. If the messes are self-cleaning or never happen in the first place, the better it is for everyone. Sometimes we're regular users, sometimes we're janitors, and sometimes we're authority figures. But we're different than some authority figures because we're trying to find a solution that works for everyone. We're saying "what about this alternative?" rather than just enforcing rules that don't make sense. And when it comes time to create a rule, we present the idea to the community and give everyone a chance talk about it first, make changes, then vote on it. So now we have four alternatives to the issues raised: * Want to talk about something different? Why not create new blog for it? * If you want to hold a conversation, why not use the IRC or Community Message Board? * "It's about creativity." You can still show your creativity by adding variety to what you say that relates to what is being talked about. * I'm willing to look at blogs a little more frequently to see if there's anything I can add to them. Are you willing to look the wiki more frequently to see if there's anything you can do to make it better? Let's see what everyone says. — RRabbit42 (leave a message) 18:14, May 8, 2010 (UTC) Discussing the alternatives *"Why not create new blog for it?" I created the "Another Random Blog" blog. Happy? *".......why not use the IRC or Community Message Board?" My parents don't let me get into Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, etc. The IRC.......well I have no idea how to use it. The Message Board just seems to be slow for me as I have to wait like 90 seconds to post another comment. *"Are you willing to look at the wiki more frequently to see if there's anything you can do to make it better?" Actually, I consider the wiki in five-star quality, except for those pages in which you have to delete it, which I can't do as I am not an admin. --'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 18:44, May 8, 2010 (UTC) : "I created the 'Another Random Blog' blog. Happy?" Actually, yes. Any of those blogs stayed on topic because they were specifically created that way. That's the difference between what I was talking about, which is a blog that gets hijacked onto a different subject. : If the Message Board seems slow, then you want to use the IRC. As soon as you press Enter, what you type is added to the channel and people can respond to it. If you go to the IRC page, there's a link you can click on in the second paragraph (the java.freenode.net one) and that will take you to where you can connect to the IRC. You should check with your parents first, though. I usually stop in once or twice a week to see what's going on, and am there after 10pm Eastern time. : By the way, the delay on the Message Board is there to help keep out spammers. They will sign up for any board just so they can post their advertisments as fast and as often as they can, and they don't care where they do it. : I'd say the wiki is at about three-star or four-star quality. I was looking at one of the blogs and it asked what we needed help with. Here's what I came up with after looking for only 2 or 3 minutes. That's about 10 ways to help the wiki get to having five-star quality. There's many more improvements than just those to be made, however. — RRabbit42 (leave a message) 19:23, May 8, 2010 (UTC) :: I understand the Message Board thing, I always did, but I'm the type of person who is very jumpy and hyper and doesn't wait. (Sorry!) Thanks about the IRC, I'll try to get it to work. I'm about to make another "Another Random Blog".....--'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 23:23, May 8, 2010 (UTC) :: I tried to use the Message Board; I got confused and gave up. I tried to use the IRC; I was the only one on because of time-zones, I got bored and gave up. I tried making a new blog; I couldn't find the "New Blog" button, I got confused and gave up. I know that I shouldn't just give up like this but I have a very short attention span, so if it doesn't work and I can't'' make'' it work; I get frustrated and give up. By the way, the "addressing of concerns" was mostly made up of contradicting everything and anything I said, It was just my opinion; you didn't have to shut me down like that. (Not literally shuting down but you know what I mean) It kind of hurt my feelings a bit... :( :: Beware the fan-girl with energy-drink 00:49, May 9, 2010 (UTC) :: It's okay, it's okay. I'm like you; once I kicked the computer when I tried getting into the IRC. :: --'Pastel Pink 'Hechos y Tonterias...... 18:18, May 9, 2010 (UTC) ::: If it's a matter of showing you how the IRC or message board works, I'm willing be available for pretty much an entire weekend so I can answer your questions. This goes for anyone that wants to learn about them. I also need to make some changes to the left-side menu, so I'll look at moving some of the help topics to a section that's easier to find. That should work better for getting to the info on the IRC, making blogs, etc. ::: As for the rest, I really hope you don't think I'm trying to shut this down or just contradict you. This is something I don't fully understand, so I created this forum and I need your help to explain it to me. If I was trying to overrule you, I wouldn't be saying "here's your idea and here's my idea" or "your idea's interesting, but what about this?" Shutting you down would be to say flat-out, "you're wrong". That's not what I'm doing. I'm just trying to present alternatives that might work better than what we have now. — RRabbit42 (leave a message) 04:46, May 18, 2010 (UTC) :::: I think this may help. Even though the Phineas and Ferb Fanon Wiki is a Wiki established for Phineas and Ferb Fan Fictions, we still have random blogs, and you can make more there. But if you are more to only randomness and blogging, then THIS is your answer. Ways